Glimpses of Christian History Presents Pastwords #18: Conference with Campion by Fulke and Goade ©2007

EDITOR'S NOTE: This "Disputation" lasted for many days and subsequently produced over 200 pages of detailed notes. The arguments were varied and compelling yet obviously at the end no minds were changed -- and no one had denied: ...that Jesus is Lord; ...that Jesus is the Son of God; ...that Jesus came in the flesh; ...that He died for our sins and rose again; nor did any one dispute any part of the Apostle's or Nicene Creed. Nevertheless, 64 days later, Edmund Campion was hung, drawn, and quartered.

A true report of the
Disputation or rather private Conference had in the Tower of London, with
Ed, Campion Jesuite, the last of August, 1581.
Set downe by the Reverend learned men
them selves that dealt
therein,

To the Reader.,

fter Campions Booke being at large answered shortly after our conference with him, which was concerning certaine points in the beginning of the sayd booke onely: and our sayd conference also, being partly remembred in the sayd answere of his booke, (though we had immediately upon the said conference, set downe in writing certaine notes of the same, out of our fresh memory to all events:) Yet we thought there was no cause, the whole booke being confuted, why we should publish our dealing with him, concerning a fewe points in the beginning thereof onely, specially Master Campion being now dead, and not to replie thereunto himselfe: so that we layd aside our notes, and without all thought of any publishing of them at all. But there having bene sithen by others the favourers if him and his cause partly in print, but in written Pamphlets much more dispersed, wherein Master Campions surmised glorious conquest against vs, is exceedingly set forth, and some of them so confidently, that in the conclusion thereof the Authour saithe: The Catholikes by the judgement of those that were not wedded wholy to will, did get the Goale. And againe: In my soule I protest, that in any indifferent judgement, the adverse protestants were quite confounded: and if I were not a Catholique already, the onely hearing of that conference, would have made me one.

Upon such untruths and impudencie of such writers, we were partly of our selves enclined, and by the often and earnest exhortations of others importuned, and by some of great authoritie almost inforced to set downe the true report of the saide conference: whereby we trust that all those Catholiques, as they woulde be called, that have any sparke of shamefullnesse left, may blush for Master Campions sake, being so manifestly deprehended in so many lyes so braggingly advouched, and in print in the Lattin tongue published to the worlde.

Surely we doe think our selves, and may say in trueth, that if we had bene so openly convicted, so many wayes and in such sorte, as Master Campion then was: we should while we lived be ashamed to shewe our faces. And we have indeede out of our fresh memories then made reporte of divers partes of this our conference unto divers persons as occasion hath served, and not dissembled, that we found not Campion such a man, as by his challenge and booke, and other mens reportes of him we looked for: and that upon this our conference with him, we verely thought the booke published in his name, to have bene none of his. But by such Pamphlets as these be, and like reports by word, his surmised victories against us were so speedily spread abroade, that divers Gentlemen and others, neither unlearned nor of them selves evill affected, gave not much credite to our sayings: of that value is the first report in some eares and heades, which hath among other things moved us not a litle, to set downe at the last this our true report of our saide conference, upon hope, that trueth in time may take place. We doe knowe that they will cavill at this, as our biting of a dead man, whome being alive, they will say, we could not all marche. But the trueth is, we doe defende our selves against the backebitings of many slaunderous reporters, who doe yet live and lurke in every corner, by false reportes and writings continually indevouring to suppresse, or at the least to blemish the trueth, upon every least occasion offered or sought. As first they began, so they continue. For whereas divers of us at divers times had conference with Campion and his fellowes, the time being such, that so many of us as could get leave, when we had once conferred with him & his fellowes, departed into the countrey from whence we were called: and others remaining in the citie, assaying whether it might please God, that they coulde doe any good with them to their reformation: this was foorthwith by reportes and pamphlets every where so framed and dispersed, as though Campion like some great beare, or Lyon rather (as they woulde have him seeme) had shaken us all off like cowardly curres once after another. But that religion can not long stand, that is underpropt and stayed by such impudent lyes, as amongest many other things may well appeare to all, that with indifferencie, without forejudgement, will reade and consider our true reporte of the sayd conference. Which why we have not published it before, and why we doe publish it nowe, we have shewed the true causes, howsoever they shall cavill, that upon misliking of our parts, we have not published it hitherto, and find fault also that we have published it nowe. Surely we with good conscience may affirme this our report, in the substance of matter to be most true, though our memorie could not always retaine the order, or the very wordes wherein every sentence was uttered.

--A. Nowell. W. Daije.

After that Master D. Fulke had made a godly prayer for direction in that action, that it woulde please God to confirme the faithfull, and to confounde the obstinate and wilfull, and that Campion denying to pray with them, had superstitiously all to becrossed him selfe, Master D. Fulke beganne with this preface in effect.

D. Fulke. Where as there hath bene some proceeding with you before, and we are come by order to the thirde chapter of your booke, where you slaunder our Church of Englands and the whole Church of God, for the definition of the Catholike Church, for that we define it so, as it shoulde be invisible: we come to proove both the Scriptures and Fathers, that it is invisible. But this I woulde have knowen unto you, that our purpose is not to deale by discourse, but briefely by Logical arguments, according to the order of schooles, etc.

After he had inquired D. Fulkes name, Campion also spake after this maner.

Campion. The disputation that I desire, is yet behinde: for I desire it might bee in the Universities. This may bee called a conference, but it is not the disputation which I require. Besides these conferences are unequall, both in respect of the suddainnesse of them, as also for want of such necessary helpes as were fitte and convenient. I see that you have some appoynted to note, as if it were made a solemne matter. I shoulde have the like, so shoulde I have come better furnished, and all these might have bene better profited. Besides, I have bene ill dealt withall already, and things heretofore spoken by me, have bene mistaken, and published in print otherwise then I ever meant.

D. Fulke. For the suddennesse, it is all alike with us. Master Lieutenant sent you worde by my request, to chuse the question your selfe on Saturday last at noone: so that you had knowledge of the question as soone as we, and also the choyse and appointing thereof. As for the noting, it is not made so solemne a matter that it can prejudice you, but to prevent false reportes that may bee spread of the conference, injurious as well to you as to us. As for the disputation you require, it is not at our appoyntment: It must be ordered by them that are to appoynt both you and us. We come by commandment, etc. but let us goe to the matter.. You slaunder us, and Master Caluine likewise, in the thirde chapter of your booke, for defining of the Catholike Church as we do. You say we make it a Platonicall Idea, an ayrie thing, that is no where &c. But I will prove that it is against nature of the Catholike Church, at any time to be visible.

Campion. Where do I slaunder you or Caluine? Reade my booke, I will maintaine my booke and every part of it. And as for the Catholike Church, I will mayntaine, that from the time of Adam to Christ, and from Christ unto us, the Church hath bene visible. But because you say I slaunder you and Caluine, shewe my wordes.

D. Fulke. These are your wordes. Non eft aufus contrauenire sonitu, videri noluit Ecclesie quam toties Scripture commemorant, refragari, nomen callide retinuit, rem ipsam fundstus definiendo sustulit &c. And ye quote Cal. Institut, lib. 4. cap. I. Sect. 2 & 3. here you plainely slaunder Caluine and us, for defining the Catholike Church (comprehending all the elect of God that have bene, are, or shalbe) to be invisible.

Camp. The Catholike Church is considered according to her parts, triumphant in heaven, and militant on earth: generally, and particularly: and I am ready to maintaine, that always the militant Church in earth is visible: every preacher in his prayer knoweth this, who in their prayers pray for the Church militant: therefore this is the point, whether this be always visible.:

Fulke. Well then it appeareth in the very beginning, that you swarve from the title of your owne booke, sclaundering us without cause, for the definition of the whole Catholike Church, and Sophistically you goe from the whole to the parte, from the Catholike Church to the Church militant, which is but a part of it, when as the whole Catholike Church comprehendeth all the elect, and is the full body of Christ, that filleth all in all things, as the Apostle sayeth, and as we confesse in the articles of our faith, We beleeve the Catholike church. We deny not that the church militant sometime is visible: but we affirme that the whole Catholike Church, whereof our definition is given, is not visible. And what cause have you then to exclaime upon Caluine and us, for defining the Catholike Church to be invisible? This we are here ready to proove.

Camp. I have sayve, that upon earth the Church is alwayes visible. But I pray you let us speake of the Church militant, I am sure these gentlemen would heare, not of a Church of Saints in heaven I am sure, of what Church they are here: Aske them.

Fulke. Well then you are found recreant in this point, openly to sclaunder our definition to be such as should take away the nature of the Church in that we make it invisible, and now when it commeth to the tryall, you will not deale with the Catholike Church, whereof our definition is given: but with a part of it, to witte, that which is upon earth, which we never denied in some sense to be always visible, because it consisteth of men upon earth, although it be not always seene, because it is oftentimes hidden from the worlde, and sometimes also from the true members thereof. But this Church upon earth you will have to be alwaies visible. Seeing therefore you give over ye defence of your slauder of our definition of the Catholike Church, which we came prepared to maintaine: we are ready also to reason of ye church militant.

Campion. The state of the question is, that the Church militant upon earth, can not be hidden, but it is always knowen, so that a man may understand of what Church he is, etc.

Fulke. The case be such as a member can knowe no more but himselfe: what meane you by visible:

Campion. I meane to be visible, is to knowe one another, to meete at Sacraments, when I can tell that I am of this church, and you of that, I a Catholike, and you a Protestant, as I certainely know there is a Church in France, a church in Spaine, and in Flaunders, though I be farre from it, and we may know one another: a member can say, This is my pastor, these are my prelates and governours. This is plaine. I would to God I had one also to write for me. I pray you let me not be mistaken, for I have had great wrong that wayes, and things have bene put in print, that I never spake or meant.

Fulke. If we have this discoursing, we that never have done: I would you would be briefe. I will proove from a place of scripture, that the church militant (understanding visible as you say) is not alwayes visible in earth. Elias complaineth, that he was left alone &c. Ergo the Church was not then visible.

Campion. I deny the Antecedent, and further declare the meaning of the place, which maketh altogether for me. For Elias setteth out the Schismatical church of the Samaritanes. In this Schismaticall church, a member being driven out, (as sometime it falleth out to bee) the worlde turning and changing, he might not know the rest: but yet knew there were 7000, that never bowed their knees to Baal. Againe, you must not bring a particular to overthrowe a generall. There were none there: therefore there were none in other places. But this place is an excellent place against you. For as the Prophet complained there, so we may justly complaine now. O Lord they have forsaken thy covenat, they have destroyed thine altars, and slaine thy Prophetes with the sword, and I am left alone &c. Yet no doubt, there were many: as for example, I might have complained of Geneva, when I was there, that I had bene alone, not knowing of any other Catholike there. Were all the Protestants in England in Queene Maries time gone: were there none: and are all Catholikes nowe gone: Whatsoever they bee, I knowe certainly there is a Church in France &c. And so then there was a florishing church in Judea, under Asa, and Jehosaphat, whither Elias was flying for succour and reliefe, &c.

Fulke. I thought we should have bene discoursing. You declare your selfe utterly ignorant in all this matter. For where were these wordes spoken?

Camp. They were spoken as he was flying into Judea, to ye church whither he knew to repaire, teaching us what to do in ye like case.

Fulke. That is not true, they were spoken in mount Horeb, as he was in the wildernesse, after he was fled from the persecution of Jezebel, when she had determined his death.

Campion. The text is playne. Venitque Beerseba Judea &c. He came to Beerseba of Judea &c.

Fulke. His flight was into the wildernes, & Beersheba was in his way, where he left his servant, & so went forward into the wildernes. For Beersheba was the utmost towne in Judea towards Horeb, (& both) Beersheba (& the wildernes of Arabia, were from Judea towards Horeb. And therefore the text sayeth, Ipse vero perexit, He went forward, &c. continuing his journey to the wildernesse, and therefore it is not true you sayd, he went into Judea, to joyne himselfe with the Church, or to seeke reliefe there.

Campion. But his complaint was of a particular place, for the Church florished in Judea under two notable kings, Asa and Jehosaphat. And when he sayeth, Ego folus, he meaneth that hee was the onely Prophet that was left &c.

Fulke. This answere cannot stand with the oracle, which pronounceth that God had left 7000 true worshippers. Wherefore it is manifest, that Elias thought himself the onely true worshipper that was left in Israel, except you wil say there were 7000. prophets, whereof he was ignorant. But ye answere yet the Church was then so visible, ye he knew whither to resort. But I wil prove yet the church of Judea. (unto which ye congregation of Israel, if they be a true church must be joined) was so invisible at some time, that it had not so much as ye face of a Church, whither any man in Elias case might resort. It is written 1. king.16. that under ye reigne of Achas, there was taken a paterne of the Altar of the idolators of Damascus, (& that Urias the high Priest removed the Altar of the Lord, Whereby it appeareth that the priesthoode was corrupted, the Altar was removed, and the sacrifices utterly ceased, &c.

Campion. That might well be. For there might be such a time, and the case might so fall out, that there could be no exercise of the priestly function, (& yet it might remaine visible inough, &c. of Achas, Manasses, and such like, when there was no face at all of an outward Church, neither in the head nor in the members, when the high Priest was become an idolater? Howe could they know whither to resort, the Temple being defiled, and the priesthood it selfe so defiled with idolatrie? &c.

Campion. What meane you by the face of a Church: It might for all this be knowen, though they could not exercise their function.

Fulke. How could that be? When there was no outward forme of a Church, it fayled in the head, in the chiefe, & in the members. There was no place for their publike sacrifices, seeing that onely place, to which they were bound to resort, was defiled with heathenith idolatrie. For it must be there and no where else. And I doubt not but there were particular members, that were knowen to God, or might knowe one another: yet was there not a visible Church, as you determine of the worlde visible, to be, when men know their pastors & prelates, and the place whither to resort, &c.

Campion. I say, the dayes were as these days are nowe to Catholikes, or as they were to you in ye dayes of Queen Marie, to them that are in prison: (& yet we know there were protestants left, and those that were in prison knew wel inough to resort unto them, that were abroade: and so of the Catholikes, though nowe Masse be forbidden, and the execution of their priesthood, yet Catholikes know Catholikes, and whither to resort for the exercise of Catholike religion.

Fulke. But in Judea they knewe not whither to resort, when the temple it selfe was defiled, where onely by the law of God the sacrifice was appointed to be offered. Therefore although there were a Church then, yet it could not be visible.

Camp. Reade the wordes: The kings of Juda were as our kings, & as I said, before the times turned, there was many changes. But both this follow: there is no Church in England where Masse is said (which I dare say many catholikes love, * would go a great way to heare with all their hearts:) Ergo there are no Catholikes in England: They had no open Communions in Queene Maries time: ergo there were none, &c.

Fulke. You make bolde comparisons, you cloye us with wordes and go from the matter. We say not that the Church could ever perish out of the earth for one moment of time, or that they were not, because they were not seene, but we say against your assertion, the Church in Judea was not visible, because there was neither place nor sacrifice, nor high Priest, &c. The Priest was wicked, the Temple was defiled, &c. Nowe all kingdomes may professe religion, & have their exercises thereof in all places, though they could not doe so in Judea.

Campion. You have made a good argument for mee, Master Doctor. I wil knit it up with this: though they might onely exercise in the Temple, yet we may every where: and though Elias sawe them not, yet there were thousands: so though it be not permitted now to say Masse publikely, & to exercise our functions, yet there are thousands.

Fulke. Here is nothing but repetitions. All this is not denied, but where is the visibilities of this Church upon earth knowen to men, (as for God he always knoweth them that are his) when the head Pastor, and the only place of exercise of Je with religion was corrupt.

Campion. And yet there was Tobias in Israel, and other.

Fulke. That is not the matter: it was not visible, because they had no other place to exercise in but the Temple of Jersusalem, which at these times was polluted, the vary Aultar of God being removed, and an idolatrous altar set in the place.

Campion. That is nor alike, for we have our functions free, we may sacrifice every where, and say Masse upon every mountaine.

Fulke. Like inough for that matter. But there was not so much as an outward face of the Church, the high Priest being an Idolater, and the true Altar taken away, and therefore there could be no visibilities. You answere nothing to the matter, but abuse the presence with multitude of wordes, and therefore committing the judgement to them that be wise and learned, I will give place unto my brother.

Mast. D. Goade. Concerning the short warning, the case is all one with us, as it was with you, we had no longer deliberation than you had, litle above one days space, concerning the question, and therefore you have no cause to complaine, &c.

Campion. What shall I call your worships name:

Goade. My name is Goade.

Campion. Yes that may appeare by this preparation, as it were to a set and solemne thing, these bookes also declare, besides the bringing of a writer with you, &c.

Goade. Wel, all these concerne not the matter, you had word assoone as we, & were so made acquainted with the question, as it was of your owne choyce, &, but in deede you are gone from the state of the question, against which we came prepared, being of the whole Catholike Church, as your owne booke doth importe, and it is apparant that you have wrongfully challenged our definition, being (as hath bene truly sayd) of the Church in generall: well we must I see now, follow whither you leade us. We must leave the Catholike Church, and talke of the militant Church, the generall, and goe to a particular. One thing before I joyne with you I would wish you to forbeare, namely your dealing with the present state and personall speaches, it will better beseeme modestie, and pertaine more to the matter we have in hand, &c. which may be performed with lesse waste of wordes and more humilitie. You answere not to the report I have heard of you, for modest behaving your selfe in conference.

Campion. Concerning my selfe, I will lay my hands under your feete, but I will not humble God to you, you knowe who saith, Ne sis humilis in sapientia tua, be not humble in they wisdome. I must with courage maintaine religion. Hac eft sapientia vestra cor am populo, this is your wisdome before the people, &c. I must mot be prayed in religion.

Goade. How fitly those places of Scripture are applied, I will not now stand to discusse: but concerning the state of the question as your selfe set it downe, you are fallen from it. And the Church even as it is upon earth, being but a part of the Catholike Church, I will prove sometime to be hidden. But what meane you when you write that it must be of the nature of the Church, to be visible?

Campion. I meant that it must be an essentiall marke of the Church, & such a qualitie as is inseparable. It must be as visible, as fire is hote, water moist, &c.

Goade. Very good: but as you understand this qualitie of visibilitie, you declare your selfe to dissente from others of your side, who by visible, understand a notable glorious Church, who hath her beautie and pompe, and as your Bristowe writeth, her continuall succession of Bishops, &c.

Campion. That same outward pompe & glory, may be wanting, and yet the Church be visible inough. I would bee loth to medle with that question of succession. You know why I woulde not willingly deale in it.

Goade. Well, as hath bene proved our of the olde testament that there was a time when the Church militant was hidden, so will I prove it our of the newe. There was a time when our Saviour Christ being smitten, and all the rest of the Apostles scattered and hidden, that visibilitie was not an inseparable qualitie, ergo this qualitie is not always inseparable.

Campion. I denie the Antecedent.

Goade. I thinke any here might prove the Antecedent: the storie of that sheweth it plaine. The face of ye visible Church was ten not in Christ & his Apostles, but in ye Jewes amongst the Scribes and Pharisees: they had the succession of the Priesthood and held the chaires, Christ was crucified, put to death and buried, the Apostles scattered and fled into holes and corners, so that if visibilitie be such a certaine marke of the true Church, then the high Priests, Scribes and Pharises, were the true Church, and nor our Saviour Christ and his Apostles.

Campion. It was a Church inchoate, beginning, not perfect.

Goade. Therefore it was at sometime hidden, &c. namely in the beginning of the Church: where was then this visibilitie:

Campion. In the virgin Marie, Zacharie, John Baptiste, Peter, &c.

Goade. What shewe you me these to prove the Church visible: who was Pastor, when the Pastor was smitten and killed: who occupied the chaires: where was the outwarde face of the Church, which you will have to be so glorious? and where was the Pastor and outward exercise of Religion?

Campion. I have said before, that it is not necessarie, it should have always that outward pompe and glory. In the beginning, it is not apparant, as afterwards.

Goade. Ergo there is a time, when it may be hidden.

Campion. Not hidden, for they were gathered together. It was in deed pusillus grex, a litle flocke, but prove that it was not visible.

Goade. Because you make light accompt of these times, as being but the beginnings of the Church, let us go on to the proceedings and encrease. In those great persecutions under the cruell Emperours, the Church became hidde and invisible, ergo visibilitie is nor an inseparable marke: specially in the time of Dioclesian, Christians were so wasted as to the judgement of men, there were none remaining: their bookes were burnt, their Churches destroyed, and themselves put to death with sundrie torments.

Camp. You answere your selfe. For against whom was this persecution so hot, against whom fought they, were they shadowes? I am sure there were Christians, or els they could not have stood foorth to have endured those torments: but I coulde shewe you Rome in that time. Some escaped till Constantines time, much about three and twenty peeces. All were not eaten up: for then every man would be a Christian, and well was he that could shew himself so. I could name you the Bishop of Rome that then was.

Goade. But in the ende after that great havocke was made and crueltie had wasted all that coulde be found, where was then the visible Church: In the ende it was enforced to be hidden. It had lost that which you say must needes be of the nature of it, the glory of it was so eclipsed that it shined no where.

Campion. It was most visible then and most glorious, and not long after, when Constantine came, all were Christians: Whereby it appeareth that divers remained.

Goade. That is not to the point: though some remained, yet they were hidde. All being persecuted and put to death that could be knowen or found.

Campion. The time of these persecutions, was even like to our times. For then the Christians were exiled, put to death, driven into corners, as the Catholikes are nowe, and yet there remained inough, &c. and they were knowen.

Goade. Surely you make evill and untrue comparisons, you have no such cause to complaine of bloody persecutions in ye time of our gracious Queene, and do not well to compare her highnes peaceable and milde governement with those tyrannicall persecutions: ye might better liken your crueltie shewed in Queen Maries time to those examples. I had though to have founde more modestie in you.

Campion. Well, let the comparison be of Queen Maries time: then Protestants were put to death, & yet there remained many.

Goade. The question is nor whether they remained, but whether they were seene. But you saide of those Emperours times, that there remained many, and they were not unknowen. They were unknowen both the faithles and faithfull: ergo they were altogether unknowen.

Campion. I deny both partes of the antecedent.

Goade. When I must prove both distinctly, and first touching the faithles. The faithles coulde not know the Church: therefore they did not know it.

Camp. They knew it not by faith, but by sense they knew it.

Goade. John 3. The worlde knoweth not vs, because it knoweth not him.

Campion. I told you they did not know him as they ought to know him, to salvation. They knewe, but not fruitfully and effectually. As I know you are a Protestant, but yet beleeve not your religion. And a man that saith Masse is knowen, & yet you doe not beleeve in it.

Goade. But though the persons were knowen, yet they knew them not to be of the Church. I wil come to the other part of the antecedent.
As is the whole so are the partes:
But God onely knoweth the whole:
Ergo he onely knoweth the partes. For the members of Christ are knowen to Christ alone. By reason of many hypocrites, men are not able to judge who are truely faithfull. There are many wolves within, and many sheepe without: Deus nouit qui sunt sui, 2. Tim. 2. God knoweth who are his: therefore the true members of Christ can not be knowen but to God alone.

Campion. I knowe not who is elect, but I knowe who is a Catholike: I knowe not whether the Bishop of Rome bee elect or no, &c.

Goade. Onely the elect are of the Church, whereof Christ is the head.

Camp. I say that both good & evil are of the visible Church.

Goade. Christ hath no dead members of his body: therefore the reprobate can not bee of the Church. I will helpe you with a distinction. They may bee in the Church, but not of the Church.

Campion. The distinction is Caluins, and therefore I refuse it. But you answere your selfe, for evil men may be vina membra Christi, the lively members of Christ in respect of faith, but not in respect of charitie. A man may be a member of ye body of Christ, as it is here in earth, being a wicked man: but onely the godly are members of his body as it is in heaven. Your owne argument doth confound you. It is impossible to know the elect: therefore it is impossible the Church should be invisible.

Goade. It is your part to answere, not to oppose: you use many words & graunt absurdities. Your argument doth not folow.

Campion. You cannot know any particular man to be elect, you cannot pronounce it of your selfe: therefore you cannot measure the Church by election: then it remaineth the Church must be visible, because it must be knowen.

Goade. To be elect or true members of Christ is one thing, and to be in the visible Church is another.

Campion. This was Wicklieses error, that onely the electe were true members of the Church: but as I have saide, no man can knowe who is elect, and therefore you teache that no man can know a member of the Church, nor no man can knowe that hee shall be saved.

Goade. Particular election is not so unknowen as you would make it: for a man may have knowledge of his owne election by undoubted testimonies, and see the signes of election in others.

Fulke. You saide before that visibilitie was an inseparable qualitie of the Church, whereupon I reason thus.
If it be an inseparable qualitie, it is an inseparable note:
But it is not an inseparable note:
Ergo not an inseparable qualitie.

Campion. I denie both the Major and the Minor: both may be doubted of.

Fulke. I will prove both.

Campion. Give me leave: A note is more then a qualitie. The qualitie is to goe right, to goe the neerest and gainest way, the fastest way. A note is a marke that may be removed, that teacheth to turne on the right hand, or on the left, by this crosse, or by that windmill or marke, &c.

Fulke. I graunt there is a difference betweene a note and a qualitie, and you needed not so many wordes to have shewed that, but I speake of an inseparable note, and an inseparable qualitie. That qualitie which is inseparable, being also a note, must needes be an inseparable note. Also of that your selfe have sayd, that it is an essential qualitie. I will prove the Major.
Whatsoever marke is of the essence or nature, is inseparable”
The visiblenes is a marke which is of the essence and nature of the Church.
Therefore it is an inseparable marke.

Campion. It is an inseparable qualitie, but not an inseparable note, but after a sorte, for a qualitie must evermore stand, but a marke may be taken away.

Fulke. The question is, whether it be an inseparable note of the Church that cannot be taken away.

Campion. I say it may be, in a sense.

Fulke. I know not what sense you speake of, but this is evident by your owne confession, the visibleness of the Church is a marke, and it is of the nature. Ergo it is inseparable, so my Major is playne.

Campion. Prove your Minor.

Fulke. There was a time when visiblenes was no note of the Church: ergo it is not an inseparable note.

Campion. I denie the Antecedent.

Fulke. There was a time, when ye Church was only knowen by the Scriptures: therefore there was a time when visiblenes was no note of the Church.

Campion. I denie both the Antecedent and the consequent.

Fulke. I will prove both, and first the Antecedent.

Camp. Nay, prove the consequent first, & then ye antecedent.